Good morning, true believers (::sniff::). In today’s reread, Alice, Aubree and I will be taking another journey into Dalinar’s visions, this time back to the Recreance—when the Knights Radiant dropped their Shards and abandoned Roshar. There are so many questions in this one to tackle. Why did they do it, really? It can’t possibly be as simple as the big reveal at the end of the book lets on, can it? And what’s going on between Hoid and Harmony? And… well, read on, dear followers, as we discuss those and more. (And freak out a little over the surprise guest at the end of the chapter, of course.)
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There’s some more minor Mistborn spoilers in the epigraph discussion, under The Singing Storm section. As usual, we need to warn that if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Vision of the Recreance, Feverstone Keep (wherever that is)
WHEN: 1174.1.9.3 (two days after Rlain’s chapter)
Dalinar brings Jasnah and Navani into the vision of the Recreance, then lets them go collect information while he and Yanagawn (aka Gawx) talk about what’s happening on the field below. The Knights Radiant of old abandon their Shards and walk away, leaving them for the future rulers of Roshar to fight over. As Gawx fades away, Dalinar expects to awaken from the vision as well… but he’s confronted by an unexpected guest.
The Singing Storm
Title: Always With You
L: The title of this one comes from Odium’s quote near the end: “I’ve always been here. Always with you, Dalinar. Oh, I’ve watched you for a long, long time.” Yeah. That’s not creepy at all.
Heralds
Jezrien, Windrunners, Protecting/Leading. Talenelat, Stonewards, Dependable/Resourceful.
L: It seems pretty clear that Jezrien’s here because Dalinar, as usual, is projecting those ideals—trying to find ways to lead all the people of Roshar through this time of trouble. He’s also being dependable, so… there’s Talenelat.
Icon
Kholin glyphpair (Dalinar)
Epigraph
I am also made uncertain by your subterfuge. Why have you not made yourself known to me before this? How is it you can hide? Who are you truly, and how do you know so much about Adonalsium?
L: Wait a second, wait a second. Hoid, being mysterious about something? I don’t believe it.
Buy the Book
Mistborn: The Wax and Wayne Series
AA: Inconceivable!
It is interesting, though, that Sazed apparently didn’t know about Hoid until he got this letter. How many of the Shards do know when he shows up on their planets?
AP: Isn’t that that $64,000 question though? Who exactly is Hoid, and how does he know so much?
AA: Well, he was there when Adonalsium was Shattered, and refused to pick up a Shard, but … that’s about all we really know about his involvement. He has a certain advantage over Sazed in this—at least he was there, knows the other Vessels, and knows something about what and how and why. Poor Sazed has to be feeling awfully ignorant sometimes.
Stories & Songs
“A multiethnic coalition here, like during the Desolations—but if I’m right, this is over two thousand years after Aharietiam.”
“They’re fighting someone,” Dalinar said. “The Radiants retreat from a battle, then abandon their weapons on the field outside.”
“Which places the Recreance a little more recently than Masha-daughter-Shaliv had it in her history,” Jasnah said, musing. “From my reading of your vision accounts, this is the last chronologically—though it’s difficult to place the one with you overlooking ruined Kholinar.”
L: Reminder for those of you out there with awful memories like me that Aharietiam was when the Heralds vanished, and the Recreance is when the Knights Radiant buggered off.
AP: I’m glad you clarified. It took me longer than it should have to figure out that they weren’t the same event. I had conflated the two the first time I read the series.
AA: Just for the sake of timeline-y things, Aharietiam was 4500 years ago—that thing in the Prelude, which Dalinar saw in a vision. Jasnah is trying to zero in on a date for the Recreance, which got muddled by the Heirocracy with their … creative revision of history. (My personal theory is that the current date system stems from the time when things settled back down after the Recreance, meaning that it happened about 1200 years ago.)
“It could be the False Desolation,” Jasnah said. … “A legend, … considered pseudohistorical. Dovcanti wrote an epic about it somewhere around fifteen hundred years ago. The claim is that some Voidbringers survived Aharietiam, and there were many clashes with them afterward. It’s considered unreliable, but that’s because many later ardents insist that no Voidbringers could have survived. I’m inclined to assume this is a clash with parshmen before they were somehow deprived of their ability to change forms.”
L: This is particularly interesting when we consider that this is the moment when the ancient knights learned about the true nature of the world and their place in it. How did they learn? What happened? Was it something that was revealed during the course of this battle somehow?
AP: Additionally, we know that some of the Parsh* people survived and retained the ability to change forms. My hunch is that they are fighting the group that would (or perhaps already has at this point) become the Listeners. To humans who don’t understand the distinction between the Parsh* and the Fused, they could seem like Voidbringers.
AA: There’s a pretty strong indication that the ones they were fighting were the Singers, and the Listeners had already broken away. Most of the following is based on the epigraphs in Part Three, but it seems most probable that the False Desolation was caused by one of the Unmade, Ba-Ado-Mishram, who figured out a way to give the Singers the same ability to take the Voidforms (or something very like them) without the presence of the Fused. The Bondsmith Melishi figured out how to trap her in a perfect gem, thus breaking her Connection to the Singers and depriving them of the ability to change forms. Caught in a form with no spren, the Singers were reduced to what the humans know as parshmen, and what the Listeners called slaveform. Somehow, in the midst of all that, the Knights Radiant discovered the “wicked thing of eminence,” presumably related to the knowledge that the humans had allowed Odium access to Roshar and all that.
It seems likely to me that the Recreance resulted from the combination of 1) knowing humans to be the interlopers, 2) knowing that they had damaged their original planet beyond livability through some form of Surgebinding, 3) realizing that they had just destroyed the ability of the original inhabitants of Roshar to change forms, 4) knowing that those people had no further ability to wage war against them, and 5) having Honor in his dying throes going slightly wacko in his communications. Learning a warped view of their origins on Roshar, coupled with the belief that they’d just done in the parsh for good, might make the whole lot of them feel guilty enough to decide that the Radiants were an all-around bad idea. (I still have trouble figuring out how they could justify the damage they did to their spren, though.)
AP: You’re right, this could definitely be the Singers instead.
Those who claimed a Shard this day would become rulers. It bothered Dalinar that the best men, the ones calling for moderation or raising concerns, would be rare among their numbers. They weren’t aggressive enough to seize the advantage.
L: And just think, most of them were passed down to their probably equally-as-aggressive families, creating a culture of violence which has perpetuated to this very day!
AA: Along with the light eyes caused by holding a Shardblade.
The man was old, with a wide, furrowed face and bone-white hair that swept back from his head as if blown by wind. Thick mustaches with a hint of black in them blended into a short white beard. He seemed to be Shin, judging by his skin and eyes, and he wore a golden crown in his powdery hair.
… “You’re… not the Almighty, are you?”
“Honor? No, he truly is dead, as you’ve been told.” The old man’s smile deepened, genuine and kindly. “I’m the other one, Dalinar. They call me Odium.”
L: ::gasp::
AP: ^^ Actual footage of my reaction. How did you get a camera into my house???
AA: I’m not buying that, Aubree. You’re much prettier. (But the reaction… yeah. Yikes.)
Bruised & Broken
“[The viziers] are scared of you. Very scared. More scared than they are of the assassin. He burned the emperor’s eyes, but emperors can be replaced. You represent something far more terrible. They think you could destroy our entire culture.”
L: Given what we know about Blackthorn!Dalinar, I don’t blame them.
AP: I really liked this. Dalinar has major inroads to do, and it makes total sense that others would not trust the Blackthorn.
AA: I was fascinated by the contrast they saw between the Assassin and the Blackthorn. We got pretty used to everyone being absolutely terrified of The Assassin In White, but all he did was go around killing rulers.
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
L: Unlike Dalinar, who just killed everyone.
AA: The Azish have a very pragmatic view of their emperors, don’t they?
“Lift doesn’t trust you. … It’s because,” Yanagawn continued, “you act so righteous. She says anyone who acts like you do is trying to hide something.”
L: Very astute of Lift to pick up on it. I think she’s right—but also wrong. There’s no hiding the awful things he’s done in his past. Everyone knows. It’s a matter of history. I don’t think Dalinar’s trying to hide it, I think he’s trying to atone for it, which is a matter of distinction that Lift probably can’t really understand yet.
AP: Yes and no, they know some but not all. But what they do know about is bad enough.
AA: Well, at this point, Dalinar doesn’t know the worst of what he did; he just knows the story they agreed to tell about Rathalas. That said, he knows what the Blackthorn did in general, especially before that. I agree that he’s not trying to hide it, but I’m not sure “atone” is right either. According to everything he’s ever known, the Blackthorn was the epitome of Vorin ideals. He’s just come to believe that there’s a better way, and now he has to live down the reputation he earned.
Squires & Sidekicks
“They’re training me to act important, Kholin, but I’m not. Not yet. Maybe not ever.”
L: Poor Gawx. It’s got to be a tough job, being a child emperor. Especially in as turbulent of times as these.
AP: I’d really like to see him live long enough to do it. I hope we get to see Gawx after the time jump as a true ruler.
AA: Hear! Hear! The kid we saw in Words of Radiance was unequivocally unfit for the job, to the point of it being a joke. The young man we see now… he has potential. I have to give the scions and viziers a lot of credit here; they could easily just doll him up and make him keep his mouth shut—make him nothing but a puppet—but instead they’re training him to take on the role they gave him. Sure, right now a lot of it is to “act important” but we saw in Edgedancer that they were giving him a thorough education. In Oathbringer, the education is showing in his ability to evaluate what’s going on around him—including his own status. So, yes. I think he’s got the chance to become a true leader.
Places & Peoples
“That armor is Soulcast,” Jasnah said, releasing his hand. “Look at the fingermarks on the metal. That’s burnished iron, not true steel, Soulcast from clay into that shape. I wonder… did access to Soulcasters retard their drive to learn smelting?”
L: I love hearing about Soulcasting and how it works. I think that Jasnah is absolutely correct and that access to this magic meant that other, more mundane methods of creation were lost—but I also wonder if there was a booming business that rose up around armor-sculptors!
AP: Possibly! But at the same time, leaving finger marks in the clay means that the sculptor wasn’t very skilled, or the job was rushed. Which makes sense if they are just trying to get functional armor produced quickly.
Weighty Words
They left their armor as well. Shards of incalculable value, renounced.
L: Is it confirmed that this armor is the same as the Shardplate we see people using in modern times? It must be, right? It’s just been augmented with gems/Stormlight in order to power it now that the spren that it was created from are (sort of) dead.
AP: This makes me wonder about the mechanics of it. The blades get summoned and dismissed, and are sorta-dead spren. The armor is always present. Is it something else? Does it work best if paired with the original spren? Do you need both together to “heal” a dead spren? So many questions!
AA: So many questions indeed. It’s pretty solid that this is the same Shardplate, passed down through generations, but it clearly doesn’t work the same way as the Shardblades. It can’t (apparently) be bonded and dismissed like a Blade, and when pieces are broken they regrow. Unfortunately, all we have is speculation at this point.
(Also, I had a great question I was going to ask Brandon at the Skyward signing this weekend, and I just didn’t have time. I was going to ask if the Soulcaster and Regrowth fabrials (and any other ancient fabrials that emulate Surgebinding) are formed in a manner similar to the Shardplate, which I presume is from the non-sapient “cousin” spren corresponding to the Nahel-bonded spren. I’m bummed that I didn’t have more time.)
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
The knights drove their weapons into the ground, then abandoned them.
…
As before in this vision, Dalinar felt as if he could hear the screaming deaths of the spren, the terrible sorrow of this field. It almost overwhelmed him.
L: I wanted to put this bit in this section specifically because of how heart-wrenching this is considering what we know about the Shards and their relationships to their wielders. If these were just priceless swords, I could understand. But these Shards are spren. They’re living beings, probably good friends with the knights bonded to them—knights who knew that abandoning their friends would mean leaving them to die. How awful, to be faced with knowledge so devastating that you’d be willing to kill your best friend.
This is why I truly believe that there’s more going on here than just what we learn at the end of the novel. There must be. Learning that they’ve stolen this world from its rightful inhabitants couldn’t possibly drive someone to destroy their best friend. Could it?
AP: That’s a devastating revelation, but I agree that it’s probably not everything. Especially considering we are only in book 3/10. I keep coming back to the Honorspren being warlike. That’s…not a glowing endorsement. There is probably a good reason that the other spren don’t like them, and I think their nature ties into why the Recreance happened.
“I don’t know what caused the Recreance, but I can guess. They lost their vision, Your Excellency. They became embroiled in politics and let divisions creep among them. They forgot their purpose: protecting Roshar for its people.”
L: Mmmhmmm.
Next week we’ll be delving into chapter 57 before we take a little break from the main action for the second set of interludes. Be sure to join us in the comments for more discussion!
CORRECTION: There will be no reread post on November 22 due to the USA Thanksgiving holiday. Chapter 57 will happen on November 29.
Alice is exhausted. But no one has to listen to her talk about volleyball for another nine months, and the Skyward signing was fun. Also, Skyward is an excellent book.
Lyndsey is devastated over the loss of Stan Lee, but she’ll always remember that with great power comes great responsibility. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is sending a shout out to all True Believers this week. Excelsior!
Odium looking like a kindly grandpa is such a Sanderson thing to do and I like it. Don’t let him fool you, Dalinar!
@1. i always think of him as the god-playing bad guy from star trek v.
I agree with Alice with her theory of the events that caused the Recreance. In fact, on Monday, I plan on asking Brandon at the Houston signing about the timing of the enslavement of the Parshmen with the Recreance. As in, how long was it between the two events.
Has someone compiled a list of the Q&A from this latest tour? Or does that usually happen when the tour’s done?
The Recreance was deliberate. This wasn’t a bunch of people giving up because they feel guilty. If that was true they wouldn’t have all quit at once. Doing it all together in front of witnesses looks more like a statement or protest. Also they deliberately summoned their equipment and left it in front of soldiers. They didn’t have to do that to abandon their oaths if that was the intent.
My theory before this book was that they knew that the future would need their Shards and this was the only way to pass them on.
Excelsior!
@@.-@ – https://wob.coppermind.net/
@7 Great, thanks!
@8 – There will be a LOT more coming – that barely scratches the surface of the Seattle signing. Keep an eye on it!
There were only three of the orders in the vision who left their Shards, right? Was it Windrunners, Stonewards, and Lightweavers? I thought garnet was mentioned somewhere, and that would be the Lightweavers.
Why those particular orders, but not the others?
The question I would love to have Brandon answer is what happened to the Shard Hoid did not take up. Did someone else take it? Did it combine with one of the others? Is it somewhere without a vessel?
I disagree here slightly. What Dalinar has been hiding is that he doesn’t have all his memories, or how strong any of the ones he does have are. For instance, how much of either battle at Rathelas does he remember since his actions in both were influenced by Evi. Plus, since the flashbacks begin before he meets her, are they strictly for our benefit or a sign of other memories that Cultivation toned down or blocked?
My impression, based on Kaladin’s experience, is that Shardplate was built by lesser spren (wind spren for Windrunners) and could be summoned/dismissed fairly quickly.. In this case, after the Recreance, the spren would have “died” in armor form and the stormlight gems would be needed to power/hold the pieces together. The pieces regenerate by stormlight giving the spren enough power to become more cohesive, and the gems provide the Connection needed to keep the armor whole and coherent.
And, I stated in previous threads and agree here, there must be more to the Recreance than the revelations at the end of the book.
Roger @11 – I’m pretty sure we’ve got WoB that all 16 Shards were picked up, and (perhaps only implied) that Hoid was never “intended” for any of them. I’ll see what I can find…
Do we know how shards and world hoppers send letters to each other? Is there an inter-cosmere courier, or a Cosmere-wide internet?
I feel pretty certain that the Radiants’ spren must have agreed to the Recreance. Otherwise, I just can’t see what could possibly convince literally every one of the Radiants (other than the Skybreakers) decide to, as Lyndsey points out, kill their best friends. What would it take to make Kaladin deliberately harm Syl?
@14 Zodda. I agree at least some of the knights radiant discussed it with their spren. But the other hand all the other spren from the Stormfather to the current radiant spren and including random spren in shadesmar like Captain Ico (whose father was a radiant spren), all see it as a terrible betrayal. If a significant portion of the radiant spren at the time thought this was the right move, I’d expect at least some of them to inform others.
I think everyone is missing a major possibility. They keep asking why would the radiants CHOOSE to abandon their oaths and spren. What if there was no choice?
The Windrunners are in the first group we see abandoning their shards, right after fighting in a nearby battle. What if the Singers were forced into slaveform during that battle. Think of the Second Ideal: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. They were KILLING those who could not protect themselves. Kaladin’s brief conundrum about whether to allow others to kill Elhokar is small compared to this. Elhokar was able to protect himself and Kaladin wouldn’t be doing the killing himself and yet this was enough to partially break the bond.
I see other ramifications too. What if some Radients decided to try protecting the new slaveform “Parshman”. The Knights Radiant didn’t fight alone. They had non-magical armies and the squires too. Some would surely have continued to fight and kill their enemy. The Radiants may have had to kill the people they had previously been leading. Remember, the story is not just that the Radiants abandoned humankind, the story is that they betrayed humankind.
I think the Recreance happened because the orders of Knights all found themselves in situations where they were unable to justify their actions in relation to the oaths they had sworn. The spren were already dying when the vision at Feverstone Keep is taking place.
So this chapter/always leaves me with more questions than answers. And for every answer, more questions seem to pop up than are laid to rest. The clues to the Recreance are all there, we just don’t have quite enough info to make it all fit yet. Alice’s theory is close I think, but we aren’t there yet. It’s going to be more horrible than what we’ve already heard, that’s for sure.
As for Gawx, I like seeing how far he has come, especially as he is so self-aware. I also hope he makes it to the back half of the series and does something Awesome.
The appearance of Odium as a kingly grandfather is almost freaky more than it would be if he showed up like Ishmael in the early WoT books. You think you could maybe trust him but he’s actually ultimate evil as far as the Cosmere knows. I hope Hoid fills Sazed in on what’s up so he can prepare to help-or stay out of the way.
@5 Simpol
That is an excellent point. That level of coordination does require to me something more than guilt. I do not however agree it would be because leaving shards for the future. But interesting theory!
@10 Nightheron
In that scene there were only two. No lightweavers/garnet mentioned. We at this time do not know. Some theorize it is because they are the most numerous, but we have not exactly had a huge sampling of shardblade designs to theorize how many of each order. So far I believe we have seen dustbringer (mostly sure of) and edgedancer (confirmed). The others are vague enough to not be sure what order they belong to (sunraiser and oathbringer)(though I theorize oathbringer is a willshaper blade, since the reachers are sailors).
@11 RogerPavelle
Your theory on shardplate is the currently prevailing theory, of which I agree with, but so far we still do not know for sure.
@13 sasuther
at this stage we do not know, but you are most definitely not alone in wanting to know how! :)
@14 Zodda and @15 Shoshan
I am with Shoshan here. If the spren that were killed knew and agreed to it, I couldn’t see how they would keep that info away from the other spren prior to dying. I think the reaction of the other spren says it all. The dead spren did not have a choice in the matter.
@16 IamJoseph
Not sure I agree with with the reason, but totally behind the logic. It is an excellent point that there could have been something that forced the radiants to kill their spren. Now what that could be and why, I have no clue but I do not think it would be because of the singers turned into slaveform mid-battle. Then they could simply stop attacking, and keep their oaths. But I would be interested to see if some entity drove them to do it.
@17 Joyspren
Can’t wait to find out more too!
Just wanted to say, when I read the end of this chapter, I nearly dropped the book.
DUN DUN DUN
I just didn’t expect to be face to face with the Big Bad this early.
Alice: Sazed is different from a lot of the other Shard Holders (at least the original holders). The originals knew Hoid (or whatever name he used back then) before and/or right after they took possession of their Shards. Sazed, on the other hand, is new to his position. If he ever came across Hoid, Sazed is not likely to have known of the significance of the person who Hoid was being when Sazed met Hoid during any Mistborn novel.
A lot of the primary and secondary characters are book smart. IMO, very few of such characters are street smart. I think Lift is one such character. (I do not believe Kaladin is very street smart. To me, someone who is street smart is somebody who has a lot of common sense and his or her instincts are usually spot on. I tend to think a street smart person is more self-taught – school of hard knocks, rather than learned by a book or mentor. Most of Kaladin’s knowledge was the result of knowledge and/or skill he learned from his father or from soldiers Kaladin trained under.
Alice: how did you daughter’s team doing during their state tournament?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Re: the Recreance, it occurs to me that the spren may have instigated it. I know that’s kind of far-fetched, but what if they were so appalled at what they learned and what it was doing to the KR that they set it up without telling the non-bonded spren? It doesn’t quite fit with the screaming, but it fits the sense of sorrow. I’m not really fond of the theory, but I have to wonder. It’s one of the few ways I can imagine that the KR were able to do such a widespread, united, simultaneous abandonment; how could they plan it without their spren knowing?
OT
Andrew, thanks for asking! They equaled the best they’ve ever done: won the first game, lost the next two. It was hard to lose, but the caliber of play at the state tournament is SO much higher than what they get in their own league. It’s kind of sad; even though they’re playing all 1B schools, the northwest league is really, really not very good. It doesn’t prepare them at all well for what they face at the tourney! But it was a great experience, and she wants to play again next year, so I call it a win!
I was initially surprised by the description of the mystery man’s eyes as “ancient” and “dancing with joy.” Logically, those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. But I’m more accustomed to “ancient” as a shorthand descriptor for eyes that seem weary, sad, or somberly wise. Mind you, I don’t know from experience how eyes express any of that.
I wasn’t particularly interested in the conclusions made by Jasnah’s chronology musings, but enjoyed her scholarly thinking-out-loud as she assessed her surroundings for clues.
@21 the spren screaming doesn’t necessarily negate the possibility that they were in on it. If I decided that my death could save the world, I’d probably still scream when the knife went in.
Warbreaker spoilers below, since a few weeks back someone asked for warnings.
On Yanagawm, I believe Brandon wants us (where “us” is Cosmere nuts) to compare him to Susebron, a true figurehead divinely-endowed Emperor whose priesthood actually do leave him entirely out of government and give him no education at all. And it’s an interesting comparison.
Why yes, I did use “endowed” on purpose.
(I had to look up Susebron’s name. My brain was insisting it was “Sudoku”.)
@IamJoseph: you made me think. Consider the Second Oaths of the Lightbringers: “Remember those who have been forgotten.” Like the Singers-turned-parshment? Who were, in fact, thoroughly forgotten even by themselves?
@Gaz: there’s a theory in the fandom that we haven’t actually met the Big Bad yet, or even figured out who it is. By that theory Odium gets disposed of in Book Five, and the real villain gets revealed then. That would make Odium a miniboss.
@carl and Gaz. Anytime a villain is directly compared to a god, he is NEVER the Big Bad. See also: Lord Ruler, Susebron, Steelheart…
Hmmmmm, the thing that jumped off the page with Odium ‘s description was he seemed to be Shin. When humans came to the planet, did they first settle in Shin territory and then move to take the Listeners territory?
@24:
Second Oath of the Edgedancers* Sorry, just bothered me.
@26:
Yes
@27
Can’t imagine why…
I really do enjoy these blog posts and come back to them every once and awhile. I am going through bits of the audio book and have been thinking about Caladin and the 4th idea. What about this, “I will forgive myself for the ones I couldn’t save, and save the ones I can.” He is still carrying every failure with him and it is keeping him from soaring on the wind the way he should. Also what are your thoughts on those swearing the 5th idea becoming immortal (essentially) because they are so connected to the cognitive realm they stop aging. Let me know your thoughts.
I’m wondering if the spren were in on the Recreance as well. The one thing I want to read the most is if Adolin brings Mayalaran all the way back I want to hear her side of the story.
Well Ivory and Jasnah know the whole story. Also here’s a crazy theory, that BOTH makes no sense and make too much snse. What if it wasn’t Voidbinding that destroyed their old home BUT regular old SURGEBINDING. THAT could be a reason to betray the spren. Right now I don’t have much of a reason to feel this way except my gut instinct. IT don’t have much evidence to support this, and trying to gather evidence to support this would require a full archive binge, ESPECIALLY when it seems like the evidence is piled against it. But IF it was true A LOT more about the recreance WOULD make sense.
I am bascially throwing it out here for two reasons. One for fun. And two if I actually get it right I get to have the privalge of being the few who can say they called it. And if I am wrong go ahead and have a good laugh at my expense I wouldn’t be throwing it out here if I was afraid of that possibility. :D
@29 I don’t think the fifth ideal will make them stop aging. Brandon has said in numerous interviews that dodging aging and death is something very restricted.
@soursavior
Has he? that is good to know. It has been over 400 years since someone swore the 5th idea for the skybreakers.
I also wonder what Dalinar would be like if he got to the fifth idea. I still have no idea why he didn’t bond that honor blade.
So many questions! I also find it interesting that Odium appears as a Shin.
Thanks for sharing the various WoBs, btw. Honestly, even if I had Brandon Sanderson in front of me, I’m not sure I’d even know what to ask.
@33 Master Silver
Assuming he could bond with the honorblade, which is not certain and not necessary to use it, why would he try? It is not his and he’s pretty sure the actual owner is still around.
Odium appearing Shin made more sense to me when we learned he was originally the humans’ god. Humans were given the Shin territory when they arrived (right? Is that head canon or actual canon?). I assumed that meant most had Shin eyes when they got there, and epicanthic folds came from adaptations?
But, I did read a WoB somewhere where he said the Heralds were alive when people first arrived on Roshar. I’d have to go see how he’s described their eyes.
Love the chapter re-reads, thanks for taking the time!
I was reading the Acanium from Coppermind. I read three interesting questions that fans asked Brandon from the Seattle Syward book signing (November 10, 2018). Below I copied the Q and relevant answer from Brandon.
Q: Is Urithiru originally from Roshar, or did it come from somewhere else?
Brandon: Ah, great question! It was built on Roshar.
My comment – This will put an end to theories that I read that Urithiru was some type of spaceship.
Q: I was expecting her to manifest Shardplate in the middle of her wedding because she had spoken such a *inaudible*.
Brandon: Let’s just say that I’m being very careful about how I show off the first manifestations of Shardplate for narrative reasons.
My comment – IMO, this shoots the theory that the geometric shapes Brandon described in the scene with Jasnah during the Battle of Thaylen City was her manifestation of Nahel-bonded Shareplate. If the scene with Jasnah was the first manifestation of Nahel-bonded Shardplate, I think Brandon’s answer would be different.
Q: Is there anything you can tell us about where the listeners are? From Narak, after they…
Brandon: Yes. They are still kind of in the area. They have made their way out through the chasms, out onto some floodplains on the other side.
My comment – Maybe I am reading something into both the question and Brandon’s answer, but I think Brandon just told us that at least some of those who escaped with Thude and the other Listeners who did not want to change into Stormform.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
A question and answer I found very interesting from the Syward pre-release party (November 6, 2018 in Ogden, Utah).
Q: If you had to pick actors to play Kaladin, Lopen, Skar, Dalinar, and Rock, who would you pick?
Brandon: I’m not sure if I could pick them all. I really like Dave Bautista for Dalinar, he is somebody that I think would do a really good job. I can give you that one; I’m not sure about the others.
Dave Bautista is a very interesting choice. When I first read Brandon’s answer, I thought Bautista was too young – because I had the image of him as a pro wrestler when he was about 15 years or so younger than he is now. He is about 50 which is the about how old Dalinar is (I think Dalinar is about 55, but that is based on Roasharian years). I agree with Brandon on that choice. Watch Bautista in some of his recent roles (Blade Runner 2049; Guardians of the Galaxy/Avengers; Hotel Artemis).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@37 RE: Shardplate
I’m guessing that Shardplate manifests differently depending on the order. I think the windspren that Kaladin manifested are a preview of Windrunner shardplate. The geometric shapes you mention might be a preview for Jasnah’s order (can remember off the top of my head). Shallan’s would be different again.
@38 : I just had a vision of Bautista-as-Dalinar going “I’ve mastered the ability of standing so incredibly still… That I become invisible to the eye.”
Or saying: “Nothing goes over my head. I would catch it.”
@38 I’m still going with the post from a few months ago, and saying Ken Watanabe as Dalinar.
@36 Taln, at least, is described as darkeyed. Amaram was surprised by that.
@theedgedancer: you are correct, sorry.
#29, @master Silver:
One of the epigraphs is an ancient Windrunner saying that he (she?) can’t take the Fourth Oath because it would mean he’d have to “stop caring about other people”. The oath pretty much has to be about reining in one’s urge to defend absolutely everyone, which coincidentally is exactly what paralyzes Kaladin in the Battle of Kholinar. Totally coincidental, that was.
#31, @BenW
We know that this is the case. I’m pretty sure it was actually stated.
@37:
I think you are misinterpreting his answer. That was almost assuredly Jasnah dismissing her Shardplate. I think Brandon is saying here that he is waiting to show off the full manifestation of Shardplate. He just tossed us a bone by showing us a glimpse of Jasnah’s.
UPDATE/CORRECTION: There will be no post this week, November 22, due to the USA Thanksgiving holiday. Chapter 57 will be addressed on November 29. Sorry for any confusion.
Andrew @37
I saw this the other day too, and it’s driving me crazy. I wish I’d heard it in person, because I’d have tried to clarify whether he was talking about the remaining Listeners, Thude & co., or whether he meant the ones who had gone stormform – Venli & co. In some ways, Venli doesn’t make sense because we already know she & her group are with the returned ancestors etc. At the same time, I’d be shocked to find out that he answered one of the biggest hanging questions – what happened to Thude’s group – in such an offhand manner. I’m going to try to get this clarified, because either answer really bothers me!
Wetlandernw @45. Did you have any thoughts on Brandon’s choice of actor to play Dalinar?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Andrew @46 – Not really. Personally, I always see Ken Watanabe, ever since we did the dream-cast, but I’ve heard him mention Dave Bautista before. By the time they get around to casting any movies, they’ll probably have to go with someone younger than either of them!
@Andrew & @Wetlandernw concerning the WoB about the remaining Listeners
I read the WoB as well and thought about posting about it in the last Rlain chapter. But I usually just lurk and don’t post an a new reread chapter was out already, so I forgot about it again. But now the thought is out of the box again…
Rlains reason to leave “the screen” couldn’t be to find the remaining Listeners, could it? How could he know about them? Eshonai knew for sure. Does Venli know that Thude and Co fled and could have survived?
And then again, I was wondering just as Wetlandernw @45 did, whether the WoB means what I think it means. Thus, I would be happy if you (all the rereading) share any new intel as well as any new thoughts/ideas on the topic whenever it fits a specific reread chapter :-)
Also, we don’t celebrate Thanksgiving. I will miss my weekly “fix” on Thursday very much, but will look forward to next week with even greater anticipation. Thank you all and have a great Thanksgiving (or like I will have, a great “counteracting Oathbringer reread withdrawal”-dinner)!
So, my husband is binge watching Agents of SHIELD right now and I’ve been occasionally following along if I’m in the room. At some point they ended up in outer space and one of the plot lines involves the aliens drinking ‘The Odium’ to turn them into god like rage filled beserkers.
I got a chuckle out of this…even though I know the word ‘Odium’ is a Latin-based word so it’s not surprising it could be used elsewhere.
Wetlandernw @45:
In her first or maybe second chapter Venli thought in her PoV that there were a couple of thousands or more stormforms still surviving – and there aren’t nearly as many Fused around so far, IIRC. I think that their numbers are somewhere in the low hundreds. So while the Fused _did_ tell Venli that she was the last Listener, I am pretty sure that they lied to her, even leaving out Thude and Co. And that they carefully keep the surviving stormform Listeners apart from the newly awakened parsh and use the Listeners as a body reservoir. For that matter, they wouldn’t want them to realize what the ostensible reward with great power that Ulim peddles to them in order to trick them into housing the Fused actually means, so they also carefully keep them away from the Fused. It is no accident that they got rid of the Listener scholars as quickly as they did – the Last Legion formed it’s conspiracy to rebel while some of them were in the voidforms, after all. The stormform Listeners can still escape if they figure out what is going on.
From what we have seen of awakened parsh so far, most of them likely have a long way to go before they can achieve the state of mind necessary to let a Fused into their body, so the Fused need to canibalize the Listeners first, while grooming the awakened parsh into possible vessels.
Bird @48:
Oh, Venli absolutely knew about Thude and Co. – she was the one who urged Eshonai to execute the refusniks(!) and then to pursue them when Thude and his division, who were supposed to guard them, escaped with them instead. But there is no way that Rlain knows – IIRC, he didn’t figure out what happened to his people in any detail before he returned to the Alethi. That is, unless he found some hint at Narak, when Bridge 4 used the Oathgate there?
And again, as I pointed out in the commentaries to Rlain’s chapter, there are thousands – possibly as many as 10K Listener children missing from the narrative. Perhaps it finally occurred to Rlain to go and look for them?
Oh, and speaking about this chapter – in the Listener Songs there are hints that Bo-Ado-Mishram did more than just give the parsh voidforms – she _also_somehow interfered with their ability to take on different forms naturally – _and_ could force forms on them regardless of their their agreement/attunement. That’s why the Listeners had to painfully re-discover how to assume forms on their own again.
An interesting point about soulcasting armor – if they can soulcast things into iron, can’t they also soulcast into superior steel? And why did the Heralds soulcast bronze for the people during the Desolations instead? I mean, bronze doesn’t have to be forged, it can be “cast” (non-magically), which is easier, but wouldn’t it have been even easier and better to soulcast, say, wooden or wax weapon models into steel?
I found Odium’s sudden appearance and general demeanor very terrifying in a low-key creepy horror kind of way. I very much hope that we’ll eventually get canon pictures of all the Shards (including multiple Preservations), like we are now getting for the Heralds.
Surely soulcasting destroys/transforms the person doing it over time though? Also, I thought that the Heralds taught the survivors of the Desolation how to cast bronze as their civilisation had been destroyed due to the frequency of the desolations following the Heralds weakening. They could have cast bronze and turned it into steel but maybe there is some weakness and remaining nature of the original material remaining when an object is soulcast? Maybe in the cognitive realm (this is just pondering on my part of course) the object still remains as a bronze object for a period of time? edit: as in when Shallan convinces the boat to turn into water in WoR, maybe the object still retains a small semblance of its previous form, like an after image shadow? (so many question marks)
I always thought Brandon left the idea of the true Parshendi/ surviving Stormformers open because there is a big scene coming where humanity and the Parshendi unite against the Fused? Also, Rlain didn’t actually return to his people did he? I thought he transformed in a storm but by the time he returned to Narak they had already been transformed and he left without making his presence known. I guess as in things Brandon we will have to wait and read to find out.
@@@@@24 Carl
LOL I like the term mini-boss for Odium, and I would laugh all the more to see Rayse’s reaction if Lift ever called him that lol!
@@@@@29 Master SIlver
There are many forms of immortality in the Cosmere. One involves being un-aging but can be killed with mundane means (The Returned), another involves regenerating from any and all damage but age normally (Gold Healing/Gold Compounding), and one involves un-aging, but can be killed with slightly above mundane means, in so far as they do regenerate slightly, and can use healing aons but still die from being beheaded (elantrians). So although I do not feel at 5th oath radiants stop aging, it could be a dice roll of any of the above, none of the above, or some new combination.
@@@@@31 BenW
Jasnah and Ivory could or could not know the whole story. Ivory is one of the new younger spren, but Jasnah did claim to speak to the high spren while in the cognitive realm. Though we do not now if the high spren kept information from Jasnah on Nale’s behalf, or even if they fully knew the reasons. I do not think the spren were in on the Recreance as the amount of trouble they would have to go through to hide their reasons are too much for me, but if that were in fact the case, then any information we have could be false concerning the Recreance because of it.
@@@@@32 soursavior
I do not know about very restricted, but they do not always coincide (ageless and deathless) and take various means in order to attain it.
@@@@@35 RogerPavelle
You do need to bond an honorblade in order to use its surges.
@@@@@36 Shiv
Some of the Heralds had Shin eyes, some did not. There was a smattering of different ethnicities among them.
@@@@@37 AndrewHB
Going to have to disagree with you on this one. Just because Brandon has said he is being careful, does not mean we did not see hints of it, like we also have seen with Dalinar. We have not seen a radiant fully summon their armor true, but I do not feel that WoB discounts Jasnah and Dalinar beginning the process or getting close to it.
@@@@@39 RogerPavelle
I agree
@@@@@42 Carl
It was stated in world as surgebinding. Via WoB we are not sure. Roshar would call a lot of magics surgebinding. We know it is similar in form, but not function. That can mean many things.
@@@@@ 43 Austin
I agree completely.
@@@@@50 Isilel
Its killing me because I cannot remember where I saw this, but there is a reason they do not soulcast into steel in that vision. There is a WoB for it, but I gotta check. I’m blanking at the moment.
@@@@@51 supermanmoustache
At least with the Radiants that use transformation there is some insulation provided by their spren so they can get away with soulcasting more than using a fabrial.
@52 Scath
If bonding is required to access the surges of an honorblade, how do you explain Bridge 4’s use of it? None of them bonded the blade (as evidenced by them trading it amongst themselves, and it later being stolen), but they could access the surges to train as Windrunners.
WoB confirms you bond an honorblade. They would bond and then release the bond. Where the confusion came in with the earlier wob is you don’t have to swear oaths to wield one. Brandon at first linked oaths with spren bond so said you couldn’t bond an honorblade but later clarified. Ill post the three WoB tomorrow. I’d try on my phone now but I’m afraid the website would glitch out
Also if I recall correctly in the editted ending of words of radiance, once szeth realizes he wasn’t actually trutbless, he voluntarily breaks his bond with the honorblade, falling to his death instead of kaladin killing him severing the bond in the original version.
In the original or “correct” edition, Kaladin absolutely kills Szeth. Nalan even talks about how death has freed Szeth from his oaths. I hate when writers change already-published works.
I don’t get why the end was changed. The only thing significant that I can think of is that killing someone with a Shardblade severs the soul, so Nale shouldn’t have been able to use the fabrial to revivify Szeth.
@53 RogerPavelle
Ok, now I can do this the right way. I wrote out the WoB below because if I go over 3, this post won’t show. I have put them in date order, and bolded what I feel are the pertinent parts. So as you will see, where the confusion came in is that Brandon considered originally when asked if you can bond an honorblade, was whether the honorblade had a spren bond, whether you had to swear oaths. Over the course of the WoB, it becomes clear that you need to bond to an honorblade, but it is like with dead shardblades, in that you are not held to any oaths or rules. Honorblade bonds are different from dead shardblades however because they do not vanish, which I believe is a function of the shardblades being dead spren, while honorblades are not. So in summation, as per the WoB, you do need to bond to an honorblade, just it functions slightly differently than living sprenblades, and dead shardblades.
3/4/14
Questioner
Can someone bond more than one Honorblade
Brandon
Honorblade? You can’t bond an Honorblade, though it can be given to you. Shardblades, however, come from a spren bond and it is possible to bond more than one
3/13/14
Questioner
If someone was using an Honorblade, would they be able to bond a spren?
Brandon
It is indeed possible
Questioner
Possible. It doesn’t block it in any way
Brandon
It does not block it. Good question. You do not have to bond Honorblades. Honorblades work with whoever holds them.
3/19/14
luke.spence
You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?
Brandon
Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There’s a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped
3/21/14
Brandon
Remember that the Honorblades do not require to be bonded to a spren to use, or gain access to powers. Nightblood goes one step further, vaporizing and destroying all three realms.
1/1/17
Brandon
Honorblades are what you’d consider a “prototype” for what eventually happened with shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous – but since the bond isn’t as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can’t heal to the extent that a Radiant can.
11/21/17
Questioner
So Honorblades. Can they actually be bound?….Can you bind to an Honorblade or not?
Brandon
Yeees you can, but it’s not exactly the same thing
Questioner
It’s not exactly the same thing as a regular Shardblade?
Brandon
Yeah…..In some ways they’re more powerful in some ways they’re a prototype, if that makes sense
Interesting WoB I came across in the process of finding the above WoB. Back in 2014, Brandon states that the radiant bond starts even before the Words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken, the bond breaks. I will type it out below
Questioner
When does a person become a surgebinder? Cause Kaladin talks about when he was a child, talked about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?
Brandon
The bond starts forming before the Words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like emotion attracts a spren, acting in a way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.
@56 Carl
I kind of get both sides. On one hand I personally do not see the need for the change from a narrative perspective (in other words the action of Kaladin actively killing Szeth vs letting Szeth fall to his death defining the character and his values), on the other hand I understand it mechanically (Honorblades cannot heal shardblade wounds. Nale states in Edgedancer how when killing a surgebinder, he needs to keep the blade in for an extended period of time to exhaust the stormlight to prevent them from healing from the blow. Szeth wouldn’t have been able to do that, so that Shardblade thrust should have killed him fast enough and completely that his soul would have went to the beyond before Nale would have reached him. The change allows this all to still function mechanically and Szeth still be able to be revived). So I understand both sides, but honestly not really sure where I find myself standing. If Brandon were to continue to do this, or do it for bigger moments in other scenes, I would become concerned.
@57 nightheron
Just saw your post after I posted mine. In my above post I included what I feel is the mechanical reason for the change as honorblades cannot heal shardblade wounds, while radiants can.
at least scientifically speaking (odd I know, in fantasy lol) when working steel and iron, the way it is forged matters, you can’t mill a sword out of a block of steel, as it will be of uniform material and break easily., as for soulcasting it, I figured the reason was similar, a soulcast item has a uniform state of material, as it would resemble a block of refined steel.Forging mixes the steel, such that harder steel is on the edges, and it will have softer core, making more flexible, its all about getting the carbon where you want it. on a molecular level.
@60 smaugthemagnificent
True true, and from what I recall of the reasoning is at their stage of development, the people wouldn’t have developed forges that could burn hot enough to work steel, so bronze would be more efficient.
Bronze also just plain appears to be easier to Soulcast. I base that on Jasnah making the new Thaylen City wall of bronze, not iron or stone or whatever. Perhaps it’s by analogy to reality, where bronze is an alloy that’s easy to cast but hard enough to be useful. (Copper is easy to cast but too soft to use for most tools.)
Oh and Taln also talked about ease and speed, they needed the ability to create weapons and armor on a massive scale very quickly. Steel is not easy or fast for pre-iron age civilizations as they appear to have slid back too.
@62 Carl
What might also support this is the fact that the Azir have an entire palace made completely of bronze (plants included). Considering what we know happens to people using a soulcasting fabrial too often, then in order to make that palace, they would have had to turn countless people into bronze statues from overusing the fabrial, just for vanity. So it could be more plausible that perhaps it is easier to soulcast bronze, resulting in less damage from using the fabrial, which would allow them to soulcast the palace with minimal casualties.
@63 smaugthemagnificent
Very true.
I thought I read somewhere that Mr Sanderson changed the death of Szeth because he didn’t like the way he wrote the original end of the fight (where Kaladin spared him) and made it that Szeth dies and then Nale healed him, then afterwards he felt that it was overly complicated in regards to resurrecting Szeth and changed it to a rewritten version of the original, due to making Kaladin seem less heartless and a killer and also making death due to shardblades more final. I mean the audiobook has the hardcover ending where Szeth gets it through the chest while all e books have the rewritten version so you can choose which one you prefer, I do know Mr Sanderson compared the changes to Tolkien’s work on the hobbit and promised not to do it too often in the future. In regards to the ending itself, I liked the way Szeth is full of horror with the realisation that he has killed so many people for no real reason and sacrificed himself, it makes him seem more tragic in my eyes as well as forming a sort of atonement for the acts he has committed. Seeing where Szeth is at the end of Oathbringer it also seems to fit in more with the notion of Alethi vengeance, I mean he died, he didn’t ask to be brought back. However, the whole issue of Szeth and his Third Oath I will leave to the proper chapter reread, in about a year and a bit.
@58 love the WoBs btw.
@60 Surely fantasy works best when there is some kind of realism involved, it makes the magic seem more magical.
Also, sorta miffed there is a logical explanation for them transforming bronze and not steel, I felt so proud of my comment about objects retaining a preference of their former shapes as well, dammit.
@65 supermanmoustache
I didn’t hear about that, but I did pull up a WoB where he says it had some to do with how Jasnah died. At the end of the day, I am fine with Brandon changing it how he feels he needs to. I just don’t want it to get so extensive that I will need multiple versions of my signed cosmere collection to keep it canon. Though I highly doubt Brandon will ever go to that extent.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3381
Regarding WoB, thanks anytime :)
Honestly total geek out moment, that is one of the biggest reason I love Sanderson’s work. Because it is steeped in reality, I could let my mind wander at times, and go “how would I handle this situation if I was a mistborn? Or an elsecaller?”. Having the powers steeped in reality, allows them to be applied to a myriad of situations and be able to actually come up with an answer. The other huge reason is how varied and creative they are. Its part of what held me back from getting into the Wheel of Time. A wind wall is a earth wall, is a fire wall. They all function the same, just look different. Meanwhile a windrunner is going to solve problems differently than an elsecaller, than an edgedancer, than a mistborn, than a forger, than an elantrian, than an……and so on. So I am pretty much thrilled that Sanderson built the cosmere.
Hey, there is nothing saying your theory about objects retaining a preference could not still apply, and coincide with the other info we have. There is that scene with the female soulcaster, who was turning into smoke, that used the fact that the giant pillars of stone in the water used to be air, to convince them to change into smoke to “feel free again”. So there is definitely something potentially there.
@66 Scath
I finally remembered where I saw the article, it was a part of a reddit post but I have copied the actual Brandon Sanderson part so you don’t have to wade through the rest…
So, in Words of Radiance, I think the scene I worked on the longest both in my head and on the page was the final confrontation between Kaladin and Szeth.
There was something I wanted to do, and took a stab at it in the text, then backed off because I couldn’t make it work. It was important to me that Kaladin refuse to kill Szeth at the end. Kaladin is about protection, not vengeance, and once he realized that Szeth really just wanted to be killed, I wanted Kaladin to hesitate.
It didn’t end up working, and I moved on to a new version and submitted it. But this itched at me, and by the time the book was released, I felt I’d made the wrong choice for that scene. So I’ve taken this chance to roll it back to the previous idea, and written it in a new way, which I like much better.
The events are the same, except for that moment. Szeth is now killed by the storm instead of by Kaladin, which I think is more thematically appropriate.
The question this raises is about Szeth being stabbed by a Shardblade, then being resuscitated. I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can. I’m going to have to work this into a later book, though I think it’s something we can sacrifice here for the stronger scene of character for Kaladin and Szeth.
As I’ve said, it’s dangerous to tweak your work after it’s out. I realize this, and I hope you’ll give me some artistic liberty in this case. (Besides, with Tolkien’s after-publication tweaks to The Hobbit being so good, I think there is proof in the genre that changing the text here and there isn’t always bad.)
I don’t recalll where I read this, but somehow the radiants learned how to stop the parshmen from having a Spren ever , which turns the parshmen into slaves basically. Perhaps they weren’t told exactly how this would help stop the voidbringers, and once it was done they seen the results of what they had done and there fore believed they had already broken there bonds even though the spen did it see t that way.
Yea embarrassing when you skip around when reading then go back and find you statement plus more right there.
“As I’ve said, it’s dangerous to tweak your work after it’s out. I realize this, and I hope you’ll give me some artistic liberty in this case.” Sorry, Brandon, but no. Obviously I can’t stop you but no. To me, personally, it’s not OK.
@67 supermanmoustache
Yeah, that’s pretty much my feelings on the matter. I personally do not see it as a big deal Kaladin killing Szeth vs the storm killing Szeth regarding Kaladin the character, but mechanically regarding how the blades should work I do get. Either way I respect his decision and am personally fine with it.
@70 Carl
I guess in this case to each their own.